tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1750120863647373520.post1951981268789768386..comments2023-08-08T11:48:10.725+01:00Comments on swisslet: so be good for goodness sake....swisslethttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16708248700851998044noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1750120863647373520.post-89756823986691688082006-12-24T16:23:00.000+00:002006-12-24T16:23:00.000+00:00I just want to be clear that every viewpoint is we...I just want to be clear that every viewpoint is welcomed here as long as it is reasonably well presented and avoids any name-calling. I'd also prefer it if people who do have a blogger ID refrained from posting anonymously - but as long as they adhere to the guidelines above, I don't really have an issue with that either. What I don't want is for people to be afraid to comment because they are worried about the reaction that they will get. That's rubbish, and I don't want it to happen here again.<br><br>I'm a little surprised that this whole debate has got so heated (and it has got heated on all sides of the debate), to be honest, but I fervently hope that no lasting damage has been done.<br><br>If there's going to be any ranting around here, I reckon it should be done by me.<br><br>merry xmas all.<br><br>STswisslethttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16708248700851998044noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1750120863647373520.post-67578316606344304392006-12-24T10:44:00.000+00:002006-12-24T10:44:00.000+00:00Being a grumpy fucker I saw that this was a Christ...Being a grumpy fucker I saw that this was a Christmas related post and skipped over it entirely. Until I noticed 30+ comments!<br><br>For what it's worth, not only did I agree with Lizzy but I also got a bit angry -not as Swiss personally- but at the whole thing. Yes, the letter perpetuated stereotypes and so on but it was also a complete lie.<br><br>One thing I hate about Christmas is the fact that to most people it is Santa and reindeer and all that and it is a complete lie; parents deliberately trick their children from the moment they're born and I find it a offensive. It's no wonder that we live in cynical times when many people's earliest memories include a massive betrayal of trust on behalf of their carers.<br><br>Why can't we just celebrate as a family and give each other presents? Why do we have to pretend there is some fat bloke in a suit?<br><br>All that 'but it's only Christmas' or 'it's magical' stuff is bollocks. Lying and deceit are considered bad things pretty much universally why do we make an exception at this time of year? Fictional stories are fine when they are presented as such -in fact they're of huge cultural importance- but not when they're presented as truth.<br><br>And that boys and girls is why I'm such a grumpy fucker at Christmas. This li'l ol' atheist has a morality issue with the common perception of Christmas. And that's leaving the whole religious aspect out of it!<br><br>Oh, and for the record, I do 'celebrate' Christmas in as much as I give presents, meet up with family I hardly ever see and so on; that aspect of it is all part of our culture and wholly a Good Thing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1750120863647373520.post-61738314572573547142006-12-23T19:32:00.000+00:002006-12-23T19:32:00.000+00:00I made this comment at Jenni's and decided to ...<i>I made this comment at Jenni's and decided to share it here as well:</i><br><br>I hadn’t read the comments at ST’s until you wrote this, assuming that they would be full of praise for his actions; what he did was very sweet and he shouldn’t be chastised for it. He didn’t draft the letter, the mother did. I didn’t initially pick up on the gender-stereotyping of Mrs. Claus. I’ve grown up in a world where my mother cooks and sews. She also chops wood, mows the lawn and pays the bills. I don’t assume because a woman does traditionally women’s chores that she doesn’t also do men’s. <i>That</i> being said…<br><br>I felt that several of the people were being deliberately obtuse in their comments and their reading of what you and Lizzy said. Your points were clear and accurate. That one long comment in response to Lizzy’s checklist was insulting. Lizzy’s summation spoke directly to the subtext of the comments of others, subtext that was clear to this reader despite my attempts to look at where each commenter was coming from in a fair and neutral way. Did I mention people were being deliberately obtuse? The comment from that person proved my point. And I have no respect for people who post such things under an assumed name. Even if it’s obvious that it was someone who previously commented under their own name, it’s lame. If you have something to say, say it directly with your own identity. Don’t try to be cute or hide behind a false persona. If you don’t agree with a person’s viewpoint, that’s fine. Disagree and argue your point. But to make personal attacks is unacceptable. It wreaks of a mean and ugly soul with a need to tear others down in order to feel better about yourself. Are there no better ways to pass the time?<br><br>So good for ST for doing a lovely thing for a coworker and her daughters.<br><br>Good for all of those who argued their points reasonably, whether I agree with them or not.<br><br>As for the rest? I’m sure I can find something else to do with my time…Aravishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16552457383913002791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1750120863647373520.post-63051168670206498192006-12-23T15:37:00.000+00:002006-12-23T15:37:00.000+00:00There is no rational counterpoint to gender stereo...There is no rational counterpoint to gender stereotyping. It's wrong. Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. I'd say it again, but I'm sick of hitting my head against a brick wall.<br><br>If you think there are rational counterpoints to the types of views that pigeonhole people, then maybe you really are an obliviously privileged simpleton.Jhttp://legalese.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1750120863647373520.post-90208916356320316822006-12-22T17:48:00.000+00:002006-12-22T17:48:00.000+00:00Ian - I have a two year old. Santa exists. It wa...Ian - I have a two year old. Santa exists. It was a joke. No need to be quite so miserable, eh?<br><br>ST - I bow to your episcopal knowledge. <br><br>*remembers never to post a joke on here again*LBhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02066193789730336267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1750120863647373520.post-25539833583436480692006-12-22T12:34:00.000+00:002006-12-22T12:34:00.000+00:00Ha ha. Oh dear.Let's see what we have here:&qu...<i>Ha ha. Oh dear.<br><br>Let's see what we have here:<br><br>"But it's Christmas!" a.k.a. "not the time or the place!" – check</i><br>[The first, and only person to say that was you. Perhaps you were too busy setting your watch to notice, but no one else posited that argument.]<br><br><i>"Don't worry, the kids are being brought up to be feisty despite it all!" – check</i><br>[Who are you quoting? Or is this an insight into the voices in your head?]<br><br><i>"Noticing internalised power structures in language is an act of cynicism and defies the goodwill behind it!" – check</i><br>[ST’s use of the word “cynical” – which was used in the context of how he felt about it, not as an accuastion aimed at you - was clearly directed at the commercialisation of Christmas, not your observation.]<br><br><i>multiple jokes about fair trade/loony lefties/political correctness gone mad – check</i><br>[From whom? Are there posts not visible to everyone? I see no mention of any of these “jokes”.]<br><br><i>"But birds are oppressed all the time, so what's the point in commenting on this in particular?" – check</i><br>[Again, you’re quoting something that wasn’t said.]<br><br><i>Anecdote about individual woman who bucks stereotype in one specific way, as though this disproves the entire point – check</i><br>[Where is this?]<br><br><i>"Well I'm a woman and a feminist, and I hold a different view, SO YOU MUST BE WRONG!" – check</i><br>[Or this?]<br><br><i>"They're only kids, no point attempting to be anti-sexist until they're adults" – check</i><br>[Another quotation of something that no one said.]<br><br><i>"Taking issue with the language used by someone nice means you seek to detract from their goodness, and quite frankly, how dare you? You make me SICK." – check</i><br>[Again with the quotations, and the hyperbole, and the pre-emptive strike that pre-empts nothing at all.]<br><br><i>comedy sexism applied to person making the point, to take her down a peg or two – check</i><br>[How else to react? You’re hearing voices, quoting them, and insulting yourself – why would anyone with any sense attempt to engage with that in a rational, serious way?]<br><br><i>lone voice defending person making point, roundly ignored – check</i><br>[You weren’t making a point. You raised an issue and then tried to beat everyone over the head with it until they submitted to your will.]<br><br><i>Blimey, that's nearly the whole set. Splendid.<br><br>If someone could just close the deal with a suggestion that my shrill, strident "whining" might be cured by a spot of "deep dicking", I win a signed copy of Jeremy Clarkson's autobiography. Volumes one AND two.<br><br>Come on! Make my day.<br><br>Merry Christmas to you all.</i><br><br>[And why not finish off with a spot more self-insult? You raised an interesting point. The language in the letters did contain gender bias, and that fact could have formed the basis of a discussion. Instead, you turned it into conflict, condemning any view that wasn’t your own and, seemingly unimpressed with the sensible, rational counterpoints being raised by others, set about arguing with yourself. You took a strong position from which to argue your point and turned it into an ad hominem (verging on ad homo) rant. I had a look at your blog to see if that was a one off, “having a bad day” thing (and no, before you accuse me of it, I’m not suggesting your menstrual cycle is to blame), but it would seem that your post here are in fact slightly toned down compared to your blog style.<br><br>I resisted the urge to post yesterday, suspecting that what you really want is reaction, but in the giving spirit of the season, today I changed my mind. Merry Christmas. I hope this made your day.]obliviously privileged simpletonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1750120863647373520.post-21215657920746086812006-12-21T22:19:00.000+00:002006-12-21T22:19:00.000+00:00Has clarkson had 2 autobiographies?1. When i was a...Has clarkson had 2 autobiographies?<br><br>1. When i was at top gear<br><br>2. When i came back to Top gearAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1750120863647373520.post-7244390258093678512006-12-21T20:23:00.000+00:002006-12-21T20:23:00.000+00:00i´m going to have to look at this properly when i´...i´m going to have to look at this properly when i´m not on holidayPlanet Mehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00149173563766469555noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1750120863647373520.post-4250034538116330472006-12-21T19:30:00.000+00:002006-12-21T19:30:00.000+00:00Ha ha. Oh dear.Let's see what we have here:&qu...Ha ha. Oh dear.<br><br>Let's see what we have here:<br><br>"But it's Christmas!" a.k.a. "not the time or the place!" - check<br><br>"Don't worry, the kids are being brought up to be feisty despite it all!" - check<br><br>"Noticing internalised power structures in language is an act of cynicism and defies the goodwill behind it!" - check<br><br>multiple jokes about fair trade/loony lefties/political correctness gone mad - check<br><br>"But birds are oppressed all the time, so what's the point in commenting on this in particular?" - check<br><br>Anecdote about individual woman who bucks stereotype in one specific way, as though this disproves the entire point - check<br><br>"Well I'm a woman and a feminist, and I hold a different view, SO YOU MUST BE WRONG!" - check<br><br>"They're only kids, no point attempting to be anti-sexist until they're adults" - check<br><br>"Taking issue with the language used by someone nice means you seek to detract from their goodness, and quite frankly, how dare you? You make me SICK." - check<br><br>comedy sexism applied to person making the point, to take her down a peg or two - check<br><br>lone voice defending person making point, roundly ignored - check<br><br>Blimey, that's nearly the whole set. Splendid.<br><br>If someone could just close the deal with a suggestion that my shrill, strident "whining" might be cured by a spot of "deep dicking", I win a signed copy of Jeremy Clarkson's autobiography. Volumes one AND two.<br><br>Come on! Make my day.<br><br>Merry Christmas to you all.Literary Hoaxhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07419448000189576363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1750120863647373520.post-64478495055916423652006-12-21T18:37:00.000+00:002006-12-21T18:37:00.000+00:00Aaw!!Aaw!!Threelighthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05370216083979517651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1750120863647373520.post-27733626288547355372006-12-21T18:28:00.000+00:002006-12-21T18:28:00.000+00:00I received a letter from Santa when I was a kid......I received a letter from Santa when I was a kid...only it was a "if you don't behave better next year, you won't be getting any presents!" Only my mother could be a mean Santa. :/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1750120863647373520.post-923587343162313312006-12-21T18:04:00.000+00:002006-12-21T18:04:00.000+00:00I was just about to say that I hoped none of this ...I was just about to say that I hoped none of this was personal and that Lizzy is free to say what she wants here.... but come on now Santa, that's enough of that.<br><br>STswisslethttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16708248700851998044noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1750120863647373520.post-89164192356883734602006-12-21T17:54:00.000+00:002006-12-21T17:54:00.000+00:00P.SLiterary Hoax will be getting some lovely mitte...P.S<br><br>Literary Hoax will be getting some lovely mittens and some bath oils for christmas, the oven gloves and iron have been sent back...<br>I am an obliviously privileged simpleton but still know all this is bollocks...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1750120863647373520.post-41652881759302582452006-12-21T17:46:00.000+00:002006-12-21T17:46:00.000+00:00Well just to set you straight,i am an old man and ...Well just to set you straight,i am an old man and can't sow so Mrs Claus does it for me, she does moan alot though the miserable reindeer but she doesn't have to fly all across the World delivering presents to children.<br><br>Swiss, i think your letter from me to the two girls was a lovely thing to do, and all this politically correct stuff is stupid, oh how rudolph would laugh!<br><br>I think if the young girls realised the toys they were getting for christmas were manufactured by 8 year old chinese children earning £1 a month will probably upset them more and affect them more in future life then a bit of make believe about mrs claus making the tea....<br><br>Merry ChristmasAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1750120863647373520.post-88255070553104711422006-12-21T17:06:00.000+00:002006-12-21T17:06:00.000+00:00Yes, Christmas is wonderful. And, it was fantasti...Yes, Christmas is wonderful. And, it was fantastic of Swiss to bring a bit of Christmas magic to these two girls. But when those girls are in their 20s (or even sooner than that), they'll be thanking people like Lizzy too for having the courage to point out the things we still need to change in our society. <br><br>I think we all should stop giving Lizzy a hard time. If you can't be bothered to stop because she's right about the fact that gender stereotyping isn't necessary, perhaps you could stop because berating her for sticking up on behalf our gender is not very Christmas spirit-y. <br><br>/rantJhttp://legalese.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1750120863647373520.post-41871737961124119692006-12-21T16:44:00.000+00:002006-12-21T16:44:00.000+00:00I wish Father Christmas would have written me a le...I wish Father Christmas would have written me a letter like that.<br><br>:)<br><br>Perhaps he could look into outsourcing the laundry to a cooperative paid minimum wage, and import the costumes under a fair trade agreement next year?<br><br>We shouldn't be too critical, afterall he is a self-confessed cave man!YokoSpungeonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05964135094941312857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1750120863647373520.post-33566829790279454662006-12-21T15:33:00.000+00:002006-12-21T15:33:00.000+00:00Yes, Christmas is fantastic & so are you ST, f...Yes, Christmas is fantastic & so are you ST, for doing that for those children.<br>It staggers me that people seek to take away from that.Flashhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15147225819226817259noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1750120863647373520.post-14444748038386171452006-12-21T10:57:00.000+00:002006-12-21T10:57:00.000+00:00Swiss i like the way you have turned Santa's g...Swiss i like the way you have turned Santa's grotto into a James Bond baddie "spectoresque" hideout!!<br><br>We live in a secret bunker with many rooms... <br><br>Imagine that, santa in his sleigh being chased by bond in his aston, santa throwing presents out thats actually dynamite...<br><br>I think i've watched die hard too much...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1750120863647373520.post-16944166046714787712006-12-21T09:34:00.000+00:002006-12-21T09:34:00.000+00:00Ahhhh, I think thats lovely. There's plenty ti...Ahhhh, I think thats lovely. There's plenty time for little girls to worry about the bigger picture when they are big girls. For now, let them believe in magic. Because it sure as hell sucks as Christmas when you get old.Cathttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16091141519664411812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1750120863647373520.post-25881358306706989982006-12-21T08:19:00.000+00:002006-12-21T08:19:00.000+00:00awww!awww!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1750120863647373520.post-77572636619893096782006-12-21T04:07:00.000+00:002006-12-21T04:07:00.000+00:00I think its adorable ST, really sweet. As a child ...I think its adorable ST, really sweet. As a child I would have been so happy to get a letter like that. And you know, the last thing on my tiny feminist mind is a gender pigionholing issue. I think Hyde's right. And the little ones are probably delighted at the thought on someone magical hard at work all over them.<br><br>You're a gem swissAlecya Giovannihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08210978633596875563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1750120863647373520.post-52850269812182719322006-12-21T00:05:00.000+00:002006-12-21T00:05:00.000+00:00Women do all the sewing? Ha! Not in my house. I bo...Women do all the sewing? Ha! Not in my house. I bought my missus a sewing machine for her birthday, and you know what? She hasn't even used it. <br><br>(and before anyone starts, it's what she asked for)ianhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13462118851964861754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1750120863647373520.post-21461863103430774842006-12-20T23:50:00.000+00:002006-12-20T23:50:00.000+00:00I seriously doubt ST's letter is going to be t...I seriously doubt ST's letter is going to be the thing that alerts these girls to gender-pigeonholing. If they haven't already picked up that women stereotypically traditionally do the washing and the sewing, I'd call it a miracle. Especially if it's their mother who dictated the letters... Besides, it's Santa who runs around delivering gifts, so I'm with ST on this one-- if it's a family business, Mrs. Claus should be expected to pitch in...<br><br>I think it's very sweet of you, ST...<br><br>love,<br>hHydehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05361348356625074872noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1750120863647373520.post-15836901010569951092006-12-20T23:45:00.000+00:002006-12-20T23:45:00.000+00:00no lizzy - I'm not saying it's "just ...no lizzy - I'm not saying it's "just a bit of fun". You've raised a very interesting point, and it was something I hadn't noticed. It's interesting the way that the gender role has - and it definitely has - slipped in.<br><br>I do however think that saying that this is "Limiting expectations and causing a child to internalise miserable gender pigeonholing is the issue" is a bit more of a moot point.<br><br>STswisslethttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16708248700851998044noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1750120863647373520.post-1754826919847328882006-12-20T23:42:00.000+00:002006-12-20T23:42:00.000+00:00This is really odd, as I was going to write a post...This is really odd, as I was going to write a post today closely related to what Lizzy is saying...<br><br>I understand and support her point. On the other hand, I don't want to make ST feel guilty for writing the letter requested by the girl's mother. <br><br>I've lost the opportunity to have certain jobs because of backwards-minded thinking. Lizzy is right, it's the pervasiveness of this type of thinking that leads to us having to put up with it on a daily basis.<br><br>On the other hand, it is Christmas and it was quite nice of you, ST, to bring those girls a bit of Christmas magic. And who ever said Santa was perfect?Jennihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16620338910442780375noreply@blogger.com